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View Poll Results: Leave The EU or stay in The EU?
Leave The EU. 362 53.87%
Stay in The EU. 267 39.73%
I don't care either way/won't be voting. 29 4.32%
I'd rather not say. 14 2.08%
Voters: 672. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-12-2019, 11:00 PM   #5351
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Originally Posted by judy84 View Post
John Redwood: Lots of confusion & deliberate misinformation about trading under WTO.

Here are some facts:

http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2019/01/10/trading-under-wto-rules/ …

Peter Lilley also published an excellent pamphlet with more detail “30 Truths about Leaving on WTO terms”

See: http://globalbritain.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/GBLL-paper-30-Truths-Final-05.01.19.pdf …
More unicorns!
Here's the co-founder of a small business telling what will be the real impact of trading under WTO rules:

“Falling back on the World Trade Organization will close many UK SMEs [small and medium enterprises] – it’s real, not ‘project fear’,” he said.

“The bomb dropped [when] our fulfilment company in the UK sent us the tariffs we would need to pay if we were to fall back on World Trade Organization rules and the paperwork which would need to be provided. Our margins are gone, directly because of import fees (VAT + duty) and indirectly because of staff spending more time doing admin.”

They were told that under WTO tariffs they would have to pay 7.5% extra to import coffee for their capsules, which are manufactured on mainland Europe and could also attract a tariff – enough to decimate their profits.


The full article here:
http://www.theguardian.com/politics...le-firm-bosses
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Old 01-12-2019, 11:29 PM   #5352
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May-day approaches and 'Project Fear Mk2' is in full swing.

In fact the above article IMO is just an example of that.

I have little sympathy for that company. They started up during the negotiation phase so they should have realised certain risks. More so that they out-sourced production to Europe because it saved them money thus denying their own country-folk job opportunities. Very much like EU citizens taking our own jobs. Now have no real problem with that since many EU citizens are more hard-working than our own and this company could well have sought out a UK source who, inevitably, would probably have obtained their work-force from elsewhere.

So their costs increase. They would any way. And inevitably they are passed on to the consumer who picks up the tab. Sorry for the pun but this company is simply crying in their coffee.
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Old 01-12-2019, 11:44 PM   #5353
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Originally Posted by bjcb0 View Post
The EU does allow a lower VAT rate of 5% for certain items
I thought there was a 0% rate on some items, but maybe I was wrong. For some reason, newspapers and children's clothing are in my mind, but I can't remember whose media I was reading
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Old 01-12-2019, 11:52 PM   #5354
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Originally Posted by palo5 View Post
I thought there was a 0% rate on some items, but maybe I was wrong. For some reason, newspapers and children's clothing are in my mind, but I can't remember whose media I was reading
No, you're entirely correct, and books are also zero-rated (but not e-books). These zero-rated items were negotiated as part of the UK's accession back in 1973 and cannot easily be extended. This actually became news when there was general political pressure from women's groups to reduce the 5% tax on tampons to 0%: google the Tampon Tax!

It's quite interesting to see what concessions were agreed back in 1973. Denmark obtained the unusual condition that only residents of 5 years standing (if I recall correctly) would be allowed to buy property in Denmark, mainly because of Danish fears of Germans buying holiday homes and distorting the Danish property market.
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Old 01-12-2019, 11:57 PM   #5355
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^^ There certainly is a 0% rate - well atleast there was when I was directly involved.

It covers non-luxury foods as one example. So, for example, non-chocky bikkies are zero-rate whereas chocky bikkies are standard-rate.

Another example was when George Osborn attempted to introduce a 'pasty' tax. Cold food from a bakery or take-away is zero-rate whereas hot food is standard-rate. Osborn proposed to charge vat on all food from a bakery that was warm ie not re-heated. He lost the argument.
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Old 01-13-2019, 12:52 AM   #5356
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Originally Posted by DB83 View Post
May-day approaches and 'Project Fear Mk2' is in full swing.

In fact the above article IMO is just an example of that.
It's not Project Fear, it's just the basic rules of trade and business that many Leavers seem to ignore.
Here's another article from the BBC what companies will face in the event of a no-deal:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46851664

The best bits:
This would mean the UK would not have to obey EU rules. Instead, it would need to follow World Trade Organization terms on trade. Many businesses would see new taxes on imports, exports and services, which are likely to increase their operating costs. That means the prices of some goods in UK shops could go up.

The UK would also lose the trade agreements it had with other countries as a member of the EU, all of which would need to be renegotiated alongside the new agreement with the EU itself.

Manufacturers in the UK expect to face delays in components coming across the border.


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Originally Posted by DB83 View Post
I have little sympathy for that company. They started up during the negotiation phase so they should have realised certain risks. More so that they out-sourced production to Europe because it saved them money thus denying their own country-folk job opportunities.
You don't seem to understand the reality of a small business. You have to invest a lot of money in the first years and you make losses before becoming profitable eventually.
That business owner said he had no choice. The only factory that was affordable was in Europe. His company would have never existed and jobs would have never been created if he had only looked in the UK.

Also, you are wrong about that company denying job opportunities for the Brits. On the contrary, this company was planning to expand from three employees to a staff of about 20 within a couple of years.

And last, but not least, you don't understand globalisation. Yes, it can be a problem, but it can be an opportunity too. And that's what that British company realised. They chose a factory in Europe because they want to become a global brand and give people an alternative to Nespresso pods.

I mean, aren't you proud that a British company is successful and could conquer markets all over the world? Wasn't that the aim of some Brexiteers with the idea of a Global Britain?

If we follow your rationale, then all the British companies having factories abroad are traitors. That doesn't make any sense. Then you, as a pro-Brexit consumer, should boycott British companies not manufacturing their goods entirely in the UK. There's very little that you could buy in that case.
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Old 01-13-2019, 01:13 AM   #5357
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Originally Posted by bjcb0 View Post
This actually became news when there was general political pressure from women's groups to reduce the 5% tax on tampons to 0%: google the Tampon Tax!
I thought "the tampon tax" was the price the inside of my cheek pays once a month when I've gotta make that thin smile and let a bit of snark slide on by
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Old 01-13-2019, 01:16 AM   #5358
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Originally Posted by palo5 View Post
I thought there was a 0% rate on some items, but maybe I was wrong. For some reason, newspapers and children's clothing are in my mind, but I can't remember whose media I was reading
One of the problems with VAT is that it is fiendishly complicated. Reading the EU link you might think it was a simplification, but not so. Some goods and services attract 0% VAT because they are exempt - for example property rent - unless the building is VAT registered. Some goods and services attract 0% VAT because they are VATable, but "zero rated". An example of this would be newspapers and books. Being zero rated is good because you can reclaim purchase "input" tax but you don't have to charge sales "output" tax - therefore you get a payment from HMRC every quarter when you submit a VAT return. Being exempt is not as good, but can mean you don't have to register and don't have to waste time and effort on preparing VAT returns.

Then you need to start thinking about the VAT threshold and whether you are obliged to register. Exempt supplies don't count, but VATable supplies (inc zero rated supplies) count. When your VATable supplies rise above £85Kover the 12 months just gone (on a rolling basis) you have 30 days to register and, as soon as they give you a VAT number, you start charging and paying 20% VAT. On Planet Government, they say you just jack up your prices by 20%. In the real world, your sales turnover has just fallen by 1/6th because you are being skimmed by HMRC on your sales. I have seen small businesses die an instant death when they are forced to register. VAT is the devil's tax.
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Old 01-13-2019, 02:25 AM   #5359
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Originally Posted by jacques22 View Post
More unicorns!
Here's the co-founder of a small business telling what will be the real impact of trading under WTO rules:

“Falling back on the World Trade Organization will close many UK SMEs [small and medium enterprises] – it’s real, not ‘project fear’,” he said.

“The bomb dropped [when] our fulfilment company in the UK sent us the tariffs we would need to pay if we were to fall back on World Trade Organization rules and the paperwork which would need to be provided. Our margins are gone, directly because of import fees (VAT + duty) and indirectly because of staff spending more time doing admin.”

They were told that under WTO tariffs they would have to pay 7.5% extra to import coffee for their capsules, which are manufactured on mainland Europe and could also attract a tariff – enough to decimate their profits.


The full article here:
http://www.theguardian.com/politics...le-firm-bosses
As regards the coffee capsules, the first point which occurs to me is that Britain, when importing goods, will set tariffs herself. I can't see any political reason why we would impose a tariff where no tariff existed before, unless and until the EU slaps a tariff on the same thing when we are exporting it. Who is imposing this 7.5% tariff? Is it us, or is it them? Likewise, the EU does not produce coffee - not the right climate. Therefore the coffee walks in from the same places and under the same trade rules it always followed before. Coffee will be neither cheaper nor more expensive. In fact, when Britain has left, she will not be obliged to impose the EU tariff on coffee unless she decides that she should.

Second point - there are consultants and specialists in import and export administration who do lots and lots of this paperwork. If the time and admin cost is going to be so bad, shop around for someone else to do it. After all, most of us do not mend our own cars or fix our own roof. It is an expense, but almost bound to be both easier and cheaper if you outsource it.

Third point - if the EU and Britain can't agree a free trade arrangement, then it will become harder for them to export as well, not just for us. The answer will probably be to either buy the pods from a UK supplier or import them from a friendlier country which won't impose a tariff when the finished product is exported, and so won't generate an automatic import tariff. Buying from a UK supplier might well be easier.

What to do about exporting the finished product will be more difficult because that is the bit the EU controls. If they are imposing a tariff, the trade might well become uneconomic. In this case, your best bet would be to look for other markets. Alternatively, do your manufacturing for the EU in an EU country and do your manufacturing for the rest of the world in the UK. If they are not imposing a tariff, adapt to the indirect admin costs and keep your business selling.

Life is full of challenges. This one is vexing because a more competent British government could have made a deal which would involve free trade - the EU did make clear that a Canada style deal was possible. Mrs May was not that competent British leader who might have struck a deal for us along these lines. My own opinion is that after she is gone, her successor and the EU will both need to regularise the terms of trade and a Canada style deal will be the easiest way to do that. It will not be "frictionless" but it will be possible to prevent time consuming and queue creating checks in the actual port areas and do all the friction-inducing work in bonded warehouses and on the web. Quite simply, since Mrs May has screwed this up, the little people will be required to unscrew it and work the processes out. This might be the best way in any case, because the little people are the ones who know how all this shit works.
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Old 01-13-2019, 09:07 AM   #5360
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And again, I think France and other European countries are stronger in a team like the EU to cope with globalisation than on their own.
When I was younger, I voted to enter to UE, but a majority of my fellow citizen refused.
Today I only observe that UE is a dictatorial machine imposing relocations, free market and all the problems that come with it..
Becoming older and watching how liberalism has shamed the environment and the social life, I think that local autonomy and self-responsability are safer for the future of humanity. That doesn't mean nationalism or racism... not at all. I never will support these stupid or disgusting ideologies.
But we still don't get the technology enough sophisticated to start a sustainable globalization. Not with 7.6 billion inhabitants.

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Originally Posted by jacques22 View Post
With the Single Market, you can travel to any EU country without having to worry about the currency. Also, you have EU agencies which help lower costs by working like cooperatives and are more efficient than national agencies. And you have EU programs like Erasmus which provide great opportunities to the young generation.
Why do we need UE to have that?
I slowly became an "anti-money" believer. I know, that seems very extreme, but observing what money caused, I understood that money was too dangerous. Greed is extremely harmful.

All what you mention here are metastasis of Capitalism.
IMO first sovereignty is individual, then maybe communal.
Larger (like a nation) is already too complicated to be managed by few human brains, even if they are well trained brains.

Just look at the facts.

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